How to Use the Tangibles and Technology Connection to Disciple People at Church with Liz Dolan Ep 2.06

Liza Dolan  0:00  
I think seeing those changes in life and those people's lives is like really that. I know that that sounds cliche, probably because that's the goal of ministry in churches. Life- changing and all that. But like, I don't know, I try really hard to really connect well with people and to make good investments in people. And I love seeing when things are working well and that, I don't know. It's pretty great.

Jeanette Yates  0:29  
Hello, and welcome to the Tech in Church Podcast where we talk to everyday church communicators who use simple tech tools to go from frazzled to focused. I'm Jeannette Yates, and I'm here with my co-host, Nina Hampton.

Nina Hampton  0:40  
We believe that you should spend less time worrying about technology and more time doing what you love in your ministry and in your personal life. In today's episode, we had the opportunity to speak to Liz Dolan. She's an executive pastor, who also leads worship, serves in the children's and youth ministries, and does all of this while still finding time to enjoy her favorite hobbies and spend time with her family and friends. And personally, the ways that she does that are my favorite things, but don't want to give it all away. But

Jeanette Yates  1:07  
I know I know, no spoilers, but she has some pretty fun things that she does.

Nina Hampton  1:11  
I was impressed. I may be taking a couple of her ideas from my own personally.

Jeanette Yates  1:16  
We had a great time, you know, learning how she got into ministry in the first place and how she maintains her focus on the things both in ministry and in her personal life that bring her joy.

Nina Hampton  1:27  
Yeah, we really got to talk about just how she rests, which was awesome, peaceful conversation. She also has some really pretty unique tools and ideas for staying organized and grounded in her day-to-day tasks. So let's go ahead and get to it.

Jeanette Yates  1:44  
Hey, Liz, welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited about having you today. I'm also here with my colleague, Nina. And we are so excited to be having a conversation with you today. But first of all, I want you to just tell tell us a little bit more about yourself how you got involved in ministry, a little bit about your church. 

Liza Dolan  2:02  
So I don't know if I actually had a choice because my parents are pastors. So I think it's a given like, 'you don't get a choice.' So yeah, I grew up in church, grew up around church and ministry. I don't know, I think back to when I was a little kid and the things that my parents exposed me to. We were not hidden from having to do work and or having to go places that were difficult, like funerals, or be around families, or go to nursing homes and all this stuff. So I was involved in ministry, from a young age. I used to sneak over to our food pantry and thrift store that my grandparents ran across because we live on the property at the church. So I used to sneak over and I'd get in trouble for being there because I was supposed to be cleaning my room or something. So I would often I would want to volunteer when it wasn't time to volunteer. But I remember back as a kid, our little secretary lady, she'd let me stack quarters because as a kid, growing up at church, you're kind of stuck there long after everybody else has gone. She would like stuck these set these change, change up for me. So I would do that. And I knew I wanted to do something in ministry, I just didn't know what it was that I wanted to do. So I didn't go straight into college. I decided to go to like a nine-month, sort of like Bible School/internship intensive type of thing. And so I could kind of figure out what I wanted, what God wanted as well. And so that's kind of what I did. And then when I was graduating, one of the ladies in our church that was working in the office, one of her family members got sick, and they needed somebody to just kind of do data entry. And this was back in 2000 or so. I was like, sure I can do part time. So I did that for a while. But it's kind of overtime transpired. I've worked with youth I've worked with kids, men. I've done like office admin things, money stuff, which I don't love, and all sorts of things, singing and same whatever, all of it. So I kind of have a, I appreciate it. Now looking back that I've been involved in lots of areas because I can appreciate what those people in those different areas of ministry deal with, even if I'm not currently involved in it. So that's kind of number two of seven kids. There's a lot of us. Okay, and yeah, so what else do you want to know? 

Nina Hampton  4:21  
Number two of seven? 

Liza Dolan  4:22  
Yes. 

Nina Hampton  4:23  
Cheese. Well, yeah, I'm only one of three. And that stresses me out. You know what I mean?

Liza Dolan  4:30  
It wasn't fun as a kid being crammed in a house, but I wouldn't trade it. I wouldn't trade it now. 

Nina Hampton  4:36  
So kind of getting into like hearing about your story and just kind of how you got to where you are right now. So why don't you walk us through kind of like a day in the life? Like talk about your to-do lists like your weekly rhythm. Sometimes it's not like a to-do list every day but maybe more so a to-do list for the week. Like what does that look like? What is your rhythms throughout the week and everything look like?

Liza Dolan  4:56  
So I try to take Monday. It doesn't always work out but I try to take Monday as lmore of a rest day. I try to stay at home, work from home, do things at the same time, laundry and you know work at the same time. And then Tuesday mornings, we have staff meeting, which I lead our staff, that whole meeting and stuff. I don't really have anything major. I just have all of my lists that I do. Before Thursday night, we have Thursday night rehearsal that I lead, and then onto the weekend, of course, you know how that goes. Some weeks, it could be super busy. Things happening. And then other weeks, it's just get your regular stuff done. But I usually do like a brain dump, either Sunday night, or Monday, when I'm at home. I'm trying to dump all of the things that I know got leftover from last week, and add to it. And so I usually have a running notepad of like, as I'm thinking of stuff, because I can't go to sleep if my brain won't stop running. So I'll just dump things I'm thinking of I gotta do are all of that while I'm, well I have a notepad, and I'll just throw it in there. But I do a brain dump. And then I kind of just look at my calendar, I know we talked about like, my planner, so I live and die by that, like, for years, I, I could not use a planner for a whole year. And about I don't know, six or seven years ago, there was like a mom, entrepreneur who had made this calendar like a planner, and I just loved it, the way it was set up. It wasn't like a, it wasn't a meeting sort of thing. It wasn't just a to do list and so it's like brain dump. Then I usually have my areas of like things to do for every day. Then I have on the bottom, it's like the time for the day. So I can do appointments and block out some times that I know I want to work on something or that I can work on things. Then I make my checklists for each day based off of all the dump things and where I have pockets of time. So that's kind of I mean, I oversee lots of things. It's hard to say like, what my week looks like? It feels that I don't do a lot until every week happens. And so then I'm like woohh. I feel like there's not like some people. It's like every Monday is this. Every Tuesday. Every Wednesday. It's looks like something certain. And I feel like I don't have that.  I'm like, I swear I do a lot of things, but it just doesn't look like it on my appointment book, I promise. 

Nina Hampton  7:19  
So if it makes you feel any better, everybody that we've talked to, has literally said that I know that everyone else has a very normal schedule that they do the same things every week, but I don't. And I wear 17 hats, and these are all the things that I have to do on a week to week basis. And it changes all the time.

Jeanette Yates  7:37  
We do have that one. Josiah's interview that we did with him. We do have one of our previous episodes where he does have it all the checklist, but other than him.

Nina Hampton  7:47  
Yeah, he's the anomaly. Yeah.

Liza Dolan  7:51  
I'd love to be that person. Oh my gosh, yeah.

Nina Hampton  7:53  
I would do I felt the exact same way. When I was talking to him. I'm like, man, if I could just build your structures in the my brain, I would be great.

Jeanette Yates  8:01  
Yes. So I agreed. But I think, Liz to your point, like Nina said, most of us are more in that whirlwind of ministry that goes on all week. We do a lot of things. But if someone says, What did you do? You're like, I just did the things. 

Nina Hampton  8:21  
I checked off all the stuff. Yeah, you know, and if you ask me where the checklist is, I couldn't tell you that I promise I did things. I promise.

Liza Dolan  8:30  
I do have a checklist. It stays. I know that for me. I used to compare myself really bad to people who had all of the Pinterest worthy perfection planners, you know, and I'm like, oh, I want to be that person. And it just was not me. And I had to learn. My therapist told me she's just like, you're never going to be 100% checking off the list. I used to not rest until I had a checklist completed. And that just is not our life. So I once I learned that your checklist will never be 100% blocked off. And so if you don't rest now, then you're never going to rest. So once I gave myself permission to be 'Okay, I don't have to earn rest.' I don't have to earn the break. Then yeah, it was a little bit easier. I was less hard on myself.

Nina Hampton  9:19  
Right. I think for me, I had to put rest on the checklist here. I mean, it's not something that comes after rest is on the checklist itself like and not just a full night asleep, but a break throughout the day. You know what I mean? What the little tiny things throughout my work day throughout my ministry work day because those two things look different. You know what I mean? Like being on the Text in Church team, and then all the ways that I'm currently trying to serve my church like checking in and out like resting and breathing between those things is a part of what I have to do. So yeah, that's great!

Jeanette Yates  9:52  
I really love what you said there about we don't have to earn it. We don't have to earn rest. It's a gift that's already given. We just have to take it. So we've already talked about some challenge, rests being one of them. But I do want to know, what do you think is your biggest challenge that you deal with? Your biggest struggle in your role as executive pastor? So you can pick one.

Liza Dolan  10:13  
I don't want to say finding trustworthy people. But that's kind of finding people that you can invest in, that aren't going to leave after you've given all this time, when you get burned a few times you stop trusting in somebody to do the job that they're supposed to. But I don't know. For me, I feel like that's the biggest struggle for me is, I don't want to be the person, I can do it better. Because I do feel that way sometimes. But I know that's not a healthy place to be in, because I cannot sustain doing all the things.  I've had to give people little amounts of responsibility and hope that they can do it and then see if they will do it long term. That's a hard balance For me.

Nina Hampton  10:53  
It's a hard balance period. I think that's just in the seasons of ministry that I've been into. that's probably one of the hardest things is to be resilient, and not get your feelings hurt when people leave, or come or go or have sometimes we're gonna be honest, and attitude, you know what I mean, and not take that personally. It's tough.

Jeanette Yates  11:14  
Well, and I love, we've had several events and sessions inour Engage Conference with Marianne Sibley and some of those people that talk about volunteers as they are the ministry. So sometimes we need them to serve and serve consistently and serve effectively. It's hard to also like, you're saying, Liz, you want to invest in these people, but you also need things to happen and trying to find that balance of coming alongside them in their season, and allowing them to serve and some of them want to, and they have the best intentions, and then life gets in the way, and then how to disciple them and serve them in their time of need. But also, you still have to fill that spot, right? So that's really hard.

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Nina Hampton  13:06  
So given like that challenge, and all that you have to do, and all of the rhythms, the things, the checklist, all of it, what are a few tech tools that you found that can help you kind of curb all that you have to do, and just that you found to help serve you throughout the week?

Liza Dolan  13:21  
So I made a list, but I would like to change the list of things that I've made. Because we're going with the flow around here. Okay, I've been thinking of different stuff that I've used that's maybe like not the normal stuff. And so with trying to rest and to find time to not be stressed out,  I use the Headspace app. I love that for calming down and listening to music or whatever, taking like a mindfulness breathing moment. Also, I use Focus at Will. I don't know if you've ever heard of it. It's a productivity sort of thing. You can play music and you can do it in the 25-minute slots. Is it a Pomodoro? Is that what it's called? Where you can do 25 minutes in like a five-minute break, which I don't use that all the time. But I do. I feel like when I put music on that has like lyrics, I get distracted. And I like to have music going. It feels like I get things done. So I like those. I have Focus as well. I like the Headspace thing. Of course, I use Planning Center for all things, keeping people on target. But then I also, I was thinking I use the calendar on my phone to put in. I recently started doing this where I started putting important dates I wanted to remember, whether it's someone on my team who had an anniversary, a spouse, death, or a big date that happened that might be a hard day for them because I want to be reminded to like reach out to them. Sometimes it can get past me and then I'm like when someone passes I've had this happen to myself too or someone passes away. Everybody's there for them and supporting in those first moments, and then everybody gets back to life, because that's just kind of what life is. So you often forget the hurt that they're still waking up to everyday, sometimes when they've lost somebody, or, you know, maybe they had a divorce or whatever. So, I've started doing that in my phone, just to set up a reminder on my calendar to contact that person. Because I know it's gonna be a hard day looking ahead or whatever. So I started doing that with reminders and stuff, not just for that, but important things that are maybe out of the normal. It's not a meeting. It's not some place I have to be, but it's something I want to remember to do. So I started doing that. So that's like, five things. But that's good.

Liza Dolan  13:22  
I think that's beautiful. Because I think sometimes when we hear from people, it's a lot of big ministry, right? So like, oh, I use, you know, Planning Center to organize our ministry groups, or I use Text in Church to reach out to all of our people and which is amazing. That's great. That's important, but to hear about how like you're doing that's personal ministry. I'm saying like caring for the people on your staff and the people that you're directly around, and using those little things to do that better and to steward that well. That's amazing.

Jeanette Yates  16:13  
Yeah, I think Liz, what I really liked about what you were saying is it really showed how a technology and like you say it's not that nothing fancy. It's literally the calendar on your phone. We were talking about this before we hit record. Sometimes it's literally your phone is the your biggest tech tool, but it is helping you serve the needs to build relationship to nurture that relationship to come alongside someone. And I know a lot of times, you know, when we're talking with our members, or talking with church leaders, one of the things that we always want to stress is like, tech is awesome, but it's not a replacement for your ministry, for the Holy Spirit for any of that stuff. That's not what technology about technology is just if used well can help you do what God has called you to do. So I really love that you shared that. And now I'm going to ask you to share. I think this is a great place for you to share. Normally, we asked like, what tech tool do you use, but we've talked about a lot of the tools, you just shared a way that you use your calendar. We've talked about even talking about your planner, which I think is probably a paper planner, right? Which, if we were in the olden times paper would be considered technology. So I'm going to count that. Okay. So we're gonna count that too. But you were talking to us before we hit record, and I was like, Oh, I can't believe I hadn't hit record. And so now that we're recording, I want you to talk about how you take something tangible, and technology and use it together. So you're telling us that so I would love for you to tell our listeners more about that tangible and technology connection that you use to disciple people in your church?

Liza Dolan  17:50  
Sure. This is where my commercial begins, right? So I think it was probably in 2016 or so that we started using a discipleship book in our church. One of my friends who does ministry, he wrote this book and just broke down really like the seven important things that somebody who's a new believer would need to know. So we started using that. Well, then we got Text in Church. I think it was 2017 or 2018, when we found Text in Church, and so we signed up and we're cool. We're just going to replace our calling system that we had. It was like the only plan. And then we found out that there was like options with like workflows and like the prompts to text in a word and all that stuff. So we're like, 'Oh, what can we use this for?' One of the hardest things we had was somebody who got saved in a service or rededicated their life, trying to keep track of them or to disciple them well. Some of them are falling through the cracks. They would be involved, or they would sign up. We would do small groups with this book, that being the center of it. And so they would not be able to sign up for the group because none of the classes fell on the times that they could do it. We're like, 'how can we make this so whether they're in person here with us, or maybe they're even far away, and they watched our service streaming or something? And we sent them book, how can we like keep track of them? I guess. So we started doing it, where we had them text the word 'follow,' and then it would send back a response. And it would just say, you know, thanks for deciding to follow Jesus, and we're really excited and blah, blah, blah. Then one week later, it would send them 'Please read chapter one.' So the first text would send something a 'welcome' and 'read the intro,' and you're gonna start getting a text every week. It started doing that. And so we had that in place. Then probably, I think it was during maybe during COVID timeframe that we had some of our discipleship team, record some small clips, just talking about every chapter. So we put those on YouTube and then now we changed up where the text goes out and it says, 'We're on chapter three, which is blah, blah, blah, and click this link to go and hear about Chapter Three' or whatever. So it's lots nicer than I just said. But anyway, so now people can kind of follow along. They follow along with the book, and they can read it. But also, we have a reminder set up to email someone on our discipleship team that says, 'Sally is on chapter four. She just completed it. She's halfway through the book.' And so they have reminders that go out to kind of keep track of them. And we've just really seen a lot of success from having them text that in and we incorporated this last fall. We've incorporated like a Bible, and we created a website or page on our website, I guess that's just about growth. And so there's Question and Answers about lots of things that new believers might have. There's information about this. There's links to like the Bible app and chosen  series and all sorts of things that like, if we could think of everything that a new believer would have a question about or want, or something that could help them. That's what that's on that page. So we've just really been able to utilize the workflows to do all the work for us, which is kind of the goal to keep track of these people and to really push the next steps for them, which is baptism and involvement in small groups and involvement in serving on a team and all of that stuff. So it's been really great.

Jeanette Yates  21:19  
Thank you so much for sharing that! I love how you know it. Text in Church, you know, we're known for that guest follow up, which in that plan-a-visit that kind of gets people to the building. But then I love how your church has taken that and followed up with people after they've already gotten connected in some senses. But now you're saying these next few weeks, these next few months, it's going to be to stay on that new track that you've decided to be on to keep following. Here are some guidelines. Here are some guidelines, guideposts. That's a better word, guidepost. Here's, you know, what to do. And I also like that you're using that workflow to not only send those messages to them, but also those reminders to your team to continue to follow up because it's easy to be like, 'Okay, so we set up the workflow, they're gonna get their weekly reading assignment or weekly video assignment' But that still might fall off the track. So to have somebody, human, somebody that's part of your team follow up. I think that's  such a great idea. So thank you for sharing that with us.

Nina Hampton  22:19  
Yeah. And I think, for us that are a part of the Text in Church team, like that's the hope. That this tool, this system, would help you build real relationships, real connection, and make real life change in people's life, and would just allow like to be a conduit for real relationship, a conduit for growth. We don't take the place of it kind of like Jeanette was just saying. We don't. That technology doesn't replace relationship. It's just kind of a medium for it. So that's awesome. So kind of transitioning, pivoting. We talked about all the things, all the stressors, all the challenges, all the things. So tell us about how you unplug from all this. We hit it on rest a little bit. You talked about the Headspace app, which I feel our little breaks throughout the day, but I'm talking like weekend unplug whether it's maybe a once or twice a year thing that you do when it comes to all of the stressors, all the everything. How do you unplug from the work that you do?

Liza Dolan  23:12  
I was talking about having to learn that I didn't have to earn my rest and that I needed to even like you were talking about planning it out. For me, it was 2021, and I had been looking at like for a hot tub. I just didn't have the money to do it. But one of my friends was selling one on marketplace. I was like, oh my gosh, and it was in great condition. They delivered it to me and everything, and it was so affordable. And so I'm like, sign me up, bring it over. So I did that. What was great about getting that was the fact that I couldn't take anything with me to work on. So I would just be like, I used it for probably four months. And like every night without fail unless it was bad weather, I was in the hot tub every single night. I'm out there, and I'm gonna sit there for 20-30 minutes, maybe longer. I don't care. And then I would just like unwind, and what it did for like my own brain and mental health was just astonishing. It was my unwind time, and I loved it. I know not everybody can get themselves a little hot tub. But it was for me it was like it was great, because it says it's a four-person but it lies. It's like a two person. So it's not a four-person unless they're like tiny people.

Jeanette Yates  24:34  
You're like how close do I want to be with these people? Right?

Liza Dolan  24:37  
If you don't have legs, you can fit four people in there. But that's just not. Yeah, so it's pretty great. Just like sitting just in the dark not have any lights on my deck just doing nothing.

Jeanette Yates  24:47  
It's great. I love that. And I think for those like you said, not everybody can go get a hot tub but I'm loving the idea of like, you're going somewhere you can't use your technology. So it's like, do I need to go out and to the wilderness where I have no Wi-Fi? Or do I need to like go scuba diving, where like I'm underwater and I can't have my laptop or my phone? So finding.

Nina Hampton  25:10  
An inflatable hot tub. Yeah. And call it. Yeah.

Liza Dolan  25:13  
Because not taking my phone someplace like I've thought about that, like just going out in middle of nowhere and just turning my phone off. And being by myself, that's kind of scary. Also by myself out in the forest alone, so I'm like, my backyard isn't scary. Let's just chill out. So no one's gonna get me. 

Jeanette Yates  25:33  
So other than hanging out in your hot tub, though, which sounds awesome. We're on our way over.  We'll take turns because you know, like you said, what else do you like to do in your personal life? So when you're not soaking in the hot tub, but you're also not working, which we know ministry is 24/7, 365. But you do get those moments those times? What do you like to do in your personal life? For fun? What brings you joy, as Kondo would say?

Liza Dolan  26:00  
Yes. So I have tons of nieces and nephews,. I love just dragging them random places, when they go to the store with me, and I'll just take one. I'm sure my siblings love that I will just take one or two children off their plate every so often. So I hang out with them. I love doing that. I actually hand stamp jewelry as well. It's also like a little side gig because I need something else to do. But I do. It's actually where you can choose a word. So it's like, what's my word? and so you hand stamp it and then you're supposed to wear it. I was actually given it as a gift one time, like, oh, gosh, I don't know how many years ago was maybe 2014 or 15. The word that I was given was 'purpose.' It was like a one of those, I don't know, some sort of subscription box and it got sent to me. I have been dealing really bad with like depression and like just in a really bad spot. So for me, it was I wore it on my wrist. It was a reminder that I had purpose. And I was here on purpose, for a purpose. I don't want to say it. I don't be like, 'Oh, it saved my life.' But when you deal with depression and like suicidal thoughts, it could save your life when you have something that's a reminder to all the time. So I actually started doing it. We originally bought a kit to do with my family as a fun thing for the holidays to stamp everybody a piece of jewelry. And then I just started doing it for people and it's just really great. I enjoy hearing people's stories or their why that word means something to them, or why it's going to be a motivator for the next year or whatever. So I do that. Oh no, I read. I have two cats, Pepe and Veronica. And sometimes they're nice. And sometimes they're terrors but I love them either way.

Nina Hampton  27:44  
That's like on brand for cats. Yes.

Liza Dolan  27:46  
They're not the normal though. They're kind of more like dogs. They fetch and they do tricks. And they're pretty great cats. So but yeah, I do that. I like to read. I like to color an adult coloring books. I sing. Whatever I do lots of stuff. 

Jeanette Yates  27:59  
Why is that so relaxing? The coloring in the coloring book? And I'll color and a kid coloring book or an adult one. My son got me one for Christmas. It's almost too hard. Like, it gets too fancy.

Liza Dolan  28:11  
I'll turn on, like, chill out music and sit there and do that. Yeah, I don't know. It is a little bit stressful because I like to be in the lines. And but even as a kid I always do coloring pages too. So I still enjoy that sometimes. Very therapeutic. Yeah, really? Yeah.

Nina Hampton  28:27  
So that's what you love in your personal life. So kind of going back, even with all the challenges, all the hurts all the different seasons of everything. What do you love in your ministry? What keeps you going kind of hitting on like your why that kind of keeps you going day to day?

Liza Dolan  28:42  
So I think the thing that for me is the huge motivator on those days when you kind of want to like why am I doing this? Again, it's seeing true life-change in people. We have Celebrate Recovery here in our church. And so like hearing those stories or people in small groups who have anxiety. I mean, like seeing true life changepeople is really like, that's something that will light the fire under me if I ever get in a funk. And think that it's just like pointless. And it doesn't matter what I do. I think back on those sorts of things. And I think seeing those changes in life and those people's lives is like really and I know that that sounds cliche, probably because like that's the goal of ministry and church is like life change and all that but I try really hard to really connect well with people and to make good investments and people and I just I love seeing when things are working well and that. I don't know. It's pretty great.

Nina Hampton  29:41  
It sounds like you're a good listener of stories like listening to people's stories. I think that helps you be able to see life change sometimes where people other people can't see it. I think when you're more in tune and listening to people which it really sounds like you do a good job with that. I think it helps you in those small moments. Since you see what God is doing and and through somebody, and it just really can give you that little push. Like you say sometimes you've got to hold on to those little moments when the event doesn't go as planned or the tech doesn't go as planned or whatever. But you're like, but this one person experienced Jesus today. And I'm going to hold on to that. So, all right, so we're coming to the end of our episode already. I feel like we could talk so much longer because you've got so many great stories to tell. But as we wrap up today, though, I do want to ask you, we ask this of everyone, what encouragement to your fellow church communication, church leader, executive pastor, probably a lot of them is your fellow church communicator, what would you want to say to encourage them today?

Liza Dolan  30:48  
Hmm, probably a mix of a couple of things: not to fall in the trap of perfection or comparison and all of those things. Whether that's comparing yourself to other leaders or other churches doing more or different things. I think that sometimes that can derail what God wants to do, and creativity in our own ministry because we compare ourselves to these big things and going on. I think sometimes when you're in ministry, you have to think outside the box to do stuff. That's like, with the following Jesus thing. That came from a place of need, and just sitting in hashing it out. And so it's like, I think God wants to do those sorts of things in us. But if we're just looking at what they're doing, and trying to like copy, paste, and cookie cutter it out that we miss the opportunities to be unique in our own ministry and allow God to birth like creative things out of us, I guess. And I don't know, and try not to do all the things, trying to surround yourself with people that you can invest in, and that those investments will pay off. Even if you've been burned before. Eventually the investments will pay off, and sometimes it takes longer than we want. But when you do see it pay off. It's so worth it. And so yeah, those would be my advice. 

Jeanette Yates  30:58  
Well, no. That was great. And thank you so much, Liz, for joining us on today's episode and sharing your story and sharing about how you use tools not only for your work and your ministry, but also how you use them to help you unplug and relax and take moments for yourself. And then thank you also for encouraging our fellow church communicators. We're all overwhelmed, but we can all be less overwhelmed. And so especially when we know we're not alone, right. And so that's what this is all about. Thanks a lot, Liz. We appreciate you.

Nina Hampton  32:40  
We do. Thank you so much for being transparent and honest and open. We really appreciate it and we'll see you guys next time.

Jeanette Yates  32:45  
Thank you for listening to today's episode. If you want to see a full list of tech tools, head to our show notes at podcast.textinchurch.com. And remember to subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen to that you can spend less time worrying about technology and more time doing what you love in your ministry and in your personal life.